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TOPIC: Trying a RTP for first time in 40 years.

Trying a RTP for first time in 40 years. 3 months, 1 week ago #9867

  • BudDavis
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  • Today is a gift, so ski. No promise of more.
ReflexandRstylerear.PNG



This is my first set in three weeks, so it is normal for me to feel a little uncomfortable.

I have been completely resting my ankle to see if I could get the pain to go away from the bone marrow edema.
I decided to change binding system. I had double Goode Power Shells. I have been using double boots for longer than I have been on the slalom course. I went to double boots when I went from a Jobe Honeycomb w/RTP to a Kidder Redline with double high wraps. That was probably in the beginning of the 80s.

I chose Reflex front and R-style rear. I set it up this morning and headed out to ski. So, that is about forty years wearing a rear boot and not even trying a RTP.

I just got through skiing with the new setup. It was weird feeling just standing before I got in the water. I felt a little unstable as the boat pulled me up. I felt so uncomfortable pulling out for the gate, I did not even turn in for the gate.

I ran the second pass, but I felt very insecure. During the next four passes, I continued feeling unstable, but could feel the potential for making better off-side turns, if I can get used to the R-style rear binding. I even felt uncomfortable pulling out to drop at the end of the set, and every time at the ends of the lake.

I hope to ski a second set tomorrow with this same set-up.

Re: Trying a RTP for first time in 40 years. 3 months, 1 week ago #9868

  • RL
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I made the same change less than a year ago after a brutal behind the boat release on a double boot/single plate system. As we discussed yesterday don't be afraid to take a knife to it. My back boot has 2 straps but is cut down more from the front of the rear ankle to about 1 inch high at the heel. I think the instability in your deep water is natural. Also when I started on this system, I started at 30 mph and eased my way up to speed over about 8 sets. I remember searching for a secure feeling on the back foot and had to just come to grips with standing up taller on the front foot. Now I wish I would have done it sooner. It helped to have Adam guide me through the things he had done along the way and there's still some things he has done that I haven't tried yet, specifically cutting out the bottom of the liner so the foot rest on the plate instead of the liner. What is your release set at?

Re: Trying a RTP for first time in 40 years. 3 months, 1 week ago #9869

  • BudDavis
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  • Today is a gift, so ski. No promise of more.
I first set it on floor and loosen to well less than light. I snapped my left foot in and slightly pulled up and forward. I immediately had intense pain in my ankle. The one that I injured. So, I put my right foot in and adjusted tighter after each release until it took a little effort to get it to pop out.

I feel like it is too loose for aggressive skiing, but I also feel like my left ankle would be toast if I pulled on my foot to get it to release at this tension. I believe it is in the 4 area. As you know, that is less than Reflex recommends for my 140 lbs.

And on that note; I do not believe any adjustable release system should have any reference to a body weight. I think releases should be set to how aggressive a skier pulls up on the bindings while skiing and how strong their tendons are.

Like you, I am starting slow and easy as I try to find comfort with the different system. I did ski second set yesterday.

Thank you RL for sharing your experience.

Re: Trying a RTP for first time in 40 years. 3 months, 1 week ago #9870

  • RL
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I'm only running 4.5 at 165. I've not had any "bad" releases and it probably releases a little on the conservative side which I'm ok with. I think a good flat bottom or some other method to keep the boot from rolling on the plate matters. Mine has no "play/movement" on the plate. I'm sure you've seen where some have made a bondo cup to keep the boot from rolling side to side.

Re: Trying a RTP for first time in 40 years. 3 months ago #9873

I was on Double Powershells since 95...After skiing with Andy Mapple 4 years a go, he recommended I switch to Reflex front and R-Style Rear. This would allow more forward flex with my rear ankle/leg. He was absolutely correct.

In order to get use to the feel of the R-Style rear I used my regular Powershell liner and placed a tight velcro strap around the top. This fooled my mind into thinking I was still in a Powershell. It worked really well, and still does to this day.

The big difference is I have "2" Buckles on my rear R-Style, and I tighten them as much as possible. Releases just fine, but holds my foot as well as any Powershell ever did. I can't imagine having only one buckle. My foot would be moving around way to much.

Re: Trying a RTP for first time in 40 years. 3 months ago #9874

  • BudDavis
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  • Today is a gift, so ski. No promise of more.
I did like you Ed with the Velcro wrap and full liner.

After skiing that second set, I had my follow-up doc visit for my foot. He gave me an injection and put me back in cast for two weeks. That time will be up next week.

In the mean time, I cut down the boot and liner and added another strap. I am very eager to try it.


CutdownRstylerear.PNG

Re: Trying a RTP for first time in 40 years. 3 months ago #9875

Hope your recovery is soon and successful. As far as the rear foot goes with an R-Style, I found it to be absolutely essential that the rear foot is firmly held in place, just feeling like it was in the dual hardshells. The difference being, without that upper cuff, you will have more flexibility to move COM forward. Both my buckles are as tight as they can go and yet releasing in a fall is no problem at all.

Good luck with your recovery and let us know how things turn out.
The following user(s) said Thank You: BudDavis

Re: Trying a RTP for first time in 40 years. 2 months, 3 weeks ago #9880

  • BudDavis
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  • Today is a gift, so ski. No promise of more.
I skied with the little wings trimmed down and second strap and I liked it. I cannot be very technical about it, because it was my first time on water after two weeks off, but I can say before I could feel my ankle bones pushing on the wings and now I cannot.

Re: Trying a RTP for first time in 40 years. 2 months, 2 weeks ago #9881

  • BudDavis
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  • Today is a gift, so ski. No promise of more.
This is hard for me to believe. After five sets on the kicker, I decided, because of my weak foot and weak everything else, I would go back to a rear boot. I think a kicker is good; I just think with the pain in my foot and the weakness in general, I needed the rear boot.

This rear boot was different from what I had used. It is stiffer than I used to use. It is also mounted straight. I always had my rear rotated out since 2011.

Getting up was a little awkward. I moved out for the gate and could not turn the ski for the gate. It was crazy feeling. You would think I had never turned a ski before. Second pass and third pass, I could not turn the ski at number two buoy. Fourth pass, I got around four, but that was all.

I was ready to quit and go back to the kicker. But, I took another pass and tried to not think what it felt like, and just do what I tell students. (Tall, proud, handle down) I ran the pass awkwardly. I ended up running three more passes, and each one felt better than the one before.

Just an added note: I imagine the different placement did not have any effect, but I did move my front boot from 29 1/4" to 29 1/2" and my back place the new rear boot at 17 1/8”. My feet are now 1/2” farther apart. The old boot placement and kicker was 17 3/8”. I cannot get the two boots as close, so I am compromising and keeping the point between my feet the same.

And since I used to have my rear Goode Powershell mounted with an elevated heel, I put a 1/2" wedge inside my Reflex rear boot since it has a Reflex release and I did not want to move the heel release block.


Heellift.jpg


Reflexboots.PNG

Re: Trying a RTP for first time in 40 years. 2 months, 2 weeks ago #9884

  • RL
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This sounds similar to me last year, I just had to decide what to use and then figure out how to do what I'm trying to do without getting distracted by the awkward feel of things.

Re: Trying a RTP for first time in 40 years. 2 months, 2 weeks ago #9887

  • BudDavis
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  • Today is a gift, so ski. No promise of more.
Today I skied my fifth set on this double boot set-up. Each set, I feel a little better. I really felt great today. Without doubt, this was my best set since getting back on the water. By the way, I am not skiing long sets. This was four passes. I am trying to rebuild my strength. Also, I am still just running 28off/32mph.

Re: Trying a RTP for first time in 40 years. 2 months, 1 week ago #9888

Just thought I would mention that Terry Winter is now on Double Reflex, so along with Robert Pigozzi, you are in good company.

Re: Trying a RTP for first time in 40 years. 2 months, 1 week ago #9890

  • BudDavis
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  • Today is a gift, so ski. No promise of more.
It has been raining. I did a little shop work. I removed the Reflex hardware from the two Reflex plates and mounted them on one full floating plate. I also rotated my back boot by shifting the toe loop to the side and my heel latch to the other side.

They are calling for more rain tomorrow. I am eager to try it.


RotatedReflexRearBoot.PNG

Re: Trying a RTP for first time in 40 years. 2 months, 1 week ago #9899

  • BudDavis
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  • Today is a gift, so ski. No promise of more.
There was a break in the rain a little bit ago, and it is raining now. However, I did ski a set of six in between.

The boot felt great. It is amazing how much more comfortable a little rotation feels in the back foot.

Re: Trying a RTP for first time in 40 years. 2 months, 1 week ago #9901

Last Nov. when Black Fri came around, I purchased another Reflex Supershell front and R-Style Rear. My first ones were 4 years old now, so I bolted them On My Spare Ski, a NRG. The new ones went on the Denali C-75 and I headed out to ski. My old R-Style was rotated and had a 1/2 inch heel lift. I didn't have the time or parts to do that to the new one and didn't think it would matter much.

Holy Crap, after 4 attempts I could not come up out of the water. Could not believe it. I went back and put the old R-Style on and everything was just fine. So it was embarrassing, but I found I could not ski without that rear boot being rotated. It was like I had no control over the ski.

So Bud, you did better than me, at least you got up and skied.

Re: Trying a RTP for first time in 40 years. 2 months, 1 week ago #9902

  • BudDavis
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  • Today is a gift, so ski. No promise of more.
Yes Ed, I agree with you. it is hard to believe how we get used to different things.

When I was using Goode Powershells mounted with their T-nuts, I would set the back boot at a certain rotation degrees. After a lot of sets, it would rotate more. to the point the boot was almost hanging off the ski. I would move it back to where I started and liked. Inevitably, it would feel awkward for the first couple of passes, and then I would like it.

Re: Trying a RTP for first time in 40 years. 2 months, 1 week ago #9903

  • BudDavis
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  • Today is a gift, so ski. No promise of more.
RL was telling me about trimming down the wings inside the boot to make it a little more forgiving and not as stiff. I just came up from the shop after doing the same to both my front and back boot. I hope to try it out tomorrow.

The red line in the first picture shows where I cut the inner part of the boot. The second picture shows the inside wings before I trimmed then out.

BTW, I also lengthen the heel strap to allow more forward lean.


TrimmeddownBoot.PNG


Heellift.jpg

Re: Trying a RTP for first time in 40 years. 2 months, 1 week ago #9904

The other thing a lot of us did was lock the front upper cuff in a 20 degree forward position, by putting a bolt through each side of the upper cuff. This helped to limit the range of movement and keep you more centered and forward over the ski. Would not let it rock back on you.

My new Powershell 5.0 came with a orange plastic block, that if you turned it 90 degrees did the same thing.

Re: Trying a RTP for first time in 40 years. 2 months, 1 week ago #9905

  • RL
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I did similar to Ed and locked mine in a more forward position.

Re: Trying a RTP for first time in 40 years. 2 months, 1 week ago #9906

  • BudDavis
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  • Today is a gift, so ski. No promise of more.
I understand the concept of locking the cuff forward 20 or 30 degrees. But I tried some bindings back about 2009 that were molded with a forward lean. I only tried them once and was not comfortable. I probably was not standing right and was fighting them. They might have been called “Advantage”, but not sure.

Similar but different: I was showing a student my heel block in my rear binding and his mother spoke up and said when she was a snow skier in college, people were putting higher and higher heel blocks under their boots to get them more forward lean on their snow skis. She said that finally the snow ski governing body made restrictions as to how high they could be.

Re: Trying a RTP for first time in 40 years. 2 months, 1 week ago #9907

  • BudDavis
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  • Today is a gift, so ski. No promise of more.
I skied today with inside boots cut down and heel strap lengthened. It felt great. I like the softer flex in the boots and I like being able to bend my ankles farther forward.

Also, this is the first time I upped the speed to my max 34.2 mph. I feel more comfortable now and with that, progress should follow. I am super excited.

Re: Trying a RTP for first time in 40 years. 2 months ago #9912

Bud,
Was great to ski at your site the other day and thanks for answering my many questions as I get back into waterskiing. You should've told me there was this thread here about bindings! You didn't have to dedicate so much time patiently talking about bindings. Glad to hear you're binding system is getting dialed in and best of luck with your recovery.
For me: I think for now I'll get Radar Vector Dbl Boot bindings (not rubber) as they're similar to my old HO Animal SuperFeet (but hopefully a little safer as you discussed). Hope to ski w you again soon!
Chad Rauls
Charleston, SC
67in HO CDX Animal Bindings (...maybe 67in Radar Senate Pro in future)
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