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TOPIC: Torsional flex tester?????

Torsional flex tester????? 4 years, 5 months ago #7512

  • BudDavis
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  • Today is a gift, so ski. No promise of more.
I made this post www.skiall6.com/forum/6-tech-talk/2596-skis-breaking-down#2607 about two and a half years ago about torsional flex of skis.

Let me hear some of your thoughts on how to build a torsional flex tester for a ski.

Re: Torsional flex tester????? 4 years, 5 months ago #7543

  • BudDavis
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  • Today is a gift, so ski. No promise of more.
Is the torsional flex of your ski worth knowing?

Do you want to know what it is out of the box so you can check it later if you think something feels different?

How would you test the torsional flex of a ski?

Do any of you any any ideas?

Re: Torsional flex tester????? 4 years, 5 months ago #7544

  • AB
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Bud, I am not sure if you have seen this before.


youtu.be/-s2KHnUpHWA

Re: Torsional flex tester????? 4 years, 5 months ago #7547

  • BudDavis
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  • Today is a gift, so ski. No promise of more.
Thank you AB.

That is right along with about what I was planning.

However, my thought was to rotate both ends, so that there would not be a need to clamp the ski to a solid surface. The ski would basically be sitting on two torsion bars, and the weights would be placed diagonally to lift up and pull down simultaneously on all four corners. It would be designed to check the torsional flex with and without the bindings in place. I mocked up one with wood already, and it seems to work well. I plan to get the materials latter this week to build a portable version. I plan to share the plans here on SkiAll6.com.

I also would like to talk with the ski manufacturers in hopes to standardize the test across the industry. My design is also portable, so it could be easily broken down and used at different ski sites.

Re: Torsional flex tester????? 4 years, 5 months ago #7548

  • AB
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I wonder where the torsional flex is important on the ski?
Looking at Mapples new one, which is supposed to have more torsional flex, the original Goode with less torsional flex, and later Goode models with less torsional flex that didn't fare as well, I wonder if there is any conclusive tests that indicate more or less is better?

Getting the initial TFlex and comparing later is a good thing.

Re: Torsional flex tester????? 4 years, 5 months ago #7569

  • AB
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Bud,

Is your theory that both sides should torsion flex the same and if there is any large difference, the ski will perform bad? Or, take a baseline and compare back off and on? If a ski goes bad, will both sides flex poorly or weaker, or just one side?

Re: Torsional flex tester????? 4 years, 5 months ago #7571

  • BudDavis
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  • Today is a gift, so ski. No promise of more.
AB, I am curious if a ski flexes the same in either direction. So far the answer for two skis is no. I do think a baseline is good when we first start on a ski.
__________________________________________________________

This is what I have measured so far.

ReflexZen.PNG



Quest45p.PNG



ReflexZenandQuest45.PNG
The following user(s) said Thank You: AB, DW

Re: Torsional flex tester????? 4 years, 5 months ago #7576

  • BudDavis
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  • Today is a gift, so ski. No promise of more.
This is a 66" 2015 Vapor.

I think it looks better balanced.


2015Vapor.PNG
The following user(s) said Thank You: AB, DW

Re: Torsional flex tester????? 4 years, 5 months ago #7578

  • LEE
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  • So, your sayin' there's a chance!
Interesting findings... Could this beg the question; "Is there a benefit of having a balanced flex for an individual skier"?

i.e. A "Balanced ski" would certainly appear to be better suited for across the board sales between LFF and RFF skiers.

Makes me wonder if an imbalanced flex could actually benefit say a RFF skier and the very same ski actually be a detriment to a LFF skier or vice versa?

I'd have no problem buying a ski that was designed specifically to help enhance my Off-side characteristics w/o taking away from, or hindering my On-side. (similar to off-set Golf clubs to help minimize the slice)

Re: Torsional flex tester????? 4 years, 5 months ago #7579

  • BudDavis
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  • Today is a gift, so ski. No promise of more.
Do we actually know for sure how a softer or stiffer torsional flex affects us and which one we like better?

Do we know what the torsional flex is of the skis we have liked and did not like?

Thoughts?

Re: Torsional flex tester????? 4 years, 5 months ago #7582

  • AB
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I don't think anyone knows.

What might be really interesting is if you could persuade John Cox to test his old Mapple vs. the new Twist.

With the way that new ski is hollowed out, you would think it would be much less stiff in torsional flex than the older Mapple. But who knows. At least then if one is significantly different, we could see some impressions of how one feels over the other..

I can imagine that torsional flex has some determination of how well a ski rides in rougher water. If you think about it, as you turn and hit a bump, the ski would flex more, so causing more input to the skier's ankles, etc.. There are lots of areas that can be impacted. Are less stiff torsional skis less consistent? If a ski starts breaking down, does the torsional flex hurt your scores with inconsistent flexing as the water conditions change? Where your weight is centered for that given day vs. other days?

Re: Torsional flex tester????? 4 years, 5 months ago #7593

Hmmm.....this is all interesting, but I don't even know what my "conventional" flex numbers are on any of my skis (but I can find out if I need to....). I'm not much of a tweaker, or any of that stuff. Andy has set my last 4 skis up, and I have barely touched any of them since. When I did, I typically ended up back where he started. I think I'm fine not knowing this information about my skis. The T2 will stay in my bag...if anyone would like to pick apart the 6.1, I imagine I'll be selling it soon!
www.mappleskis.com
Mapple T2

Re: Torsional flex tester????? 4 years, 5 months ago #7594

  • AB
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John,
I think knowing the starting flex and torsional flex of a ski can be a good thing, and prevent waste of time trying to figure out why scores go backwards or stop improving.

My friend had a ski that he was skiing well on, and then all of a sudden, he had trouble running early passes on it. Flex tested fine, but we didn't have a torsional flex tester.
Sent the ski back to manufacturer and they somewhat confirmed the torsional flex was out of spec. He wasted a couple weeks messing around with fin settings, etc., and in the Midwest, that hurts.

If he had a torsional flex tester too, he could have quickly identified a variance from out of the box and addressed with Manufacturer.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Dan Birch

Re: Torsional flex tester????? 4 years, 5 months ago #7600

That's a good point, AB. But, as I said, I've never known any numbers on any ski I've ever had. It's odd, I guess...I am very technical about almost everything, but when it comes to skiing, I've just never gotten too technical on the equipment side. Heck, I almost forgot to even measure my settings when i got the last one. I let Andy set it up, and if I get off track, I send him video. If I'm curious about numbers, I'm sure he can tell me what they are, and if I need it checked, it's an excuse to go to ski with the best in the world.

I'll keep it in the bag otherwise.
www.mappleskis.com
Mapple T2

Re: Torsional flex tester????? 4 years, 4 months ago #7637

  • DW
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I also feel that not only flex is important (not specifically indicating the level) but also the rebound characteristics of the ski. I have always thought that the "livelyness" of the carbon skis was partly due to the rebound characteristics of the material, can also be somewhat akin to the damping characteristics.

Re: Torsional flex tester????? 3 years, 5 months ago #8753

  • BudDavis
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  • Today is a gift, so ski. No promise of more.
Here is the flex tester I designed.

The following user(s) said Thank You: DW

Re: Torsional flex tester????? 3 years, 4 months ago #8844

  • DW
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Bud, very nice!

We have done similar for race car frames and tubs & gotten excellent results. Building a database will be a great start to understanding the importance of the characteristic.

As a side note and comment on "what is best", conventional wisdom that for a race car, the stiffer in torsion the better or more consistent performance it would deliver. An experiment for a NASCAR Cup frame indicated that not to be the case, too many variables changed during a fuel or tire run to keep the "stiff" frame in the peak performance window and once out of it, performance deteriorated dramatically. It was a fun experiment!
The following user(s) said Thank You: BudDavis

Re: Torsional flex tester????? 3 years, 4 months ago #8845

  • AB
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The snow ski crowd apparently thinks torsional flex on skis is important, and many facets carryover to water skiing, so wouldn't discard the importance of TF just yet. It is an unknown, which mainly means that we don't have enough information to know its importance.

Goode was touting TF years ago, although, it seems he has gone the exact opposite direction from stiffer is better to now weaker is better.
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