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TOPIC: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it?

Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 8 months ago #7303

  • BudDavis
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  • Today is a gift, so ski. No promise of more.
Andy Mapple recently put up this video about getting wide. I think it is great advice, but how do we get wide? It might be easier said than done.

I did a split screen in very slow motion to help understand what Andy did before he got wide. Let us all break it down together and post below what all we see Andy doing that gets him wide.

By the way; Jeff (The other skier in this video) can get into 41off/10.25m, so what he does also works.

Edit by Bud.


Video from Andy.

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 8 months ago #7305

Look at Andy right at hookup out of the 2-4 turn when the camera is on that side of the course. His head and upper body are "away" from the boat much more and immediately. He is generating much more speed earlier and probably holds the angle much better. Excellent stack combined with extra lean away from the boat and both applied immediately after the turn. He is getting the work done earlier and is more efficient because of how much more he is away with his head/upper body.

Jeff is more upright on that 2-4 side. It is the onside turn for both of them. Andy is getting more from it.
Goode XT - 65.25" with Wiley double high wraps
2009 Malibu Response LX with Zero Off Rev R - Setting C2

Ranked in the top 50 for US Open Men's slalom

My skiing is like a box of chocolates...you never know what you're gonna get.

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 8 months ago #7308

  • LEE
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  • So, your sayin' there's a chance!
Andy's ski swings under him more dramatically, he keeps a lower center of gravity, his Hips (Belt buckle)are open and pointed outbound, the ski then continues a more pronounced OUTBOUND SKI path, he appears the keep the Handle Lower and closer, his ski has more roll angle outbound, creating much greater inside body lean, he is able to start his turn much earlier, with a smoother arc. (less speed interruption and abrupt loading)

IMO, the most prominent difference in Andy's result is how much EARLIER he is to the Buoy. At his widest point, his handle is literally Buoy line width, while Jeff's is 2-3' inside the Buoy line. Which demonstrates the difference in the rope angle from the Pylon. (with the same rope length) The only way for Andy to create more angle is by physically being earlier (up on the Boat) in the course at the same distance marker. (the Turn Buoy)

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 8 months ago #7310

In the first video Andy looks like he was shot out of a cannon coming through the second wake. That pace lets him be much earlier to the buoy line. Would love to figure out how to do that!

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 7 months ago #7311

I think Andy is carrying a higher average speed. This allows him to move up on the boat further. The real key for us mortals isn't building the speed but being able to control it like Andy does. If we created the speed we would be out of control coming off of the second wake.
The most important thing is to have fun.

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 7 months ago #7312

  • AB
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My observations through the years have always came back to my impression is that the top 5 skiers in the world are a result of alien cross breeding. No just kidding. Was just watching Ancient Aliens on tv and thought I might be on to something.

My real impression from watching too many hours of video is that the top guys and gals do a few things consistently that most of us just occasionally do, but fail to replicate over and over like they do.

1. They roll the ski up much higher sooner and do not come off roll as load increases. (We should explore how to roll the ski more).
2. They finish their turns much harder than we do and drive the ski around quicker and ready to load EVERY time. Most skiers do this when they get behind and start to scramble.
3. They have much better hip to handle mojo. Call it strength to weight ratio, inner core strength, whatever, but they lock and load and don't break apart like we do.

I still like the alien theory...
The following user(s) said Thank You: MISkier, DanE

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 7 months ago #7326

Think you've nailed it AB, if every yahoo out there could do what the pros are doing only with less work and intensity this would not be called a sport and the participants would not be athletes.

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 7 months ago #7341

Getting wide for the buoys begins before you even enter the course. We obviously can't see from the video what the first move looks like in the pre-gate, but being wide and early at the ball is all about what you do outside of the course.
If your movements are correct in the pre-gate and right out to the first buoy and over to two ball, you have a pretty good chance of running the pass.
All of the comments about body position and handle position are good. But width at the buoy isn't created at the buoy, it's created before you even turn a ball (unless you shred an 8 buoy course )

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 7 months ago #7347

  • BudDavis
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Here is the other side.

What do you guys see?

MISkier said in post #7305 above: "Look at Andy right at hookup out of the 2-4 turn when the camera is on that side of the course. His head and upper body are "away" from the boat much more and immediately. He is generating much more speed earlier and probably holds the angle much better. Excellent stack combined with extra lean away from the boat and both applied immediately after the turn. He is getting the work done earlier and is more efficient because of how much more he is away with his head/upper body.

Jeff is more upright on that 2-4 side. It is the onside turn for both of them. Andy is getting more from it."


The following user(s) said Thank You: MISkier

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 7 months ago #7348

  • BudDavis
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  • Today is a gift, so ski. No promise of more.

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 7 months ago #7349

AB wrote:
1. They roll the ski up much higher sooner and do not come off roll as load increases. (We should explore how to roll the ski more).


Keen eye you've got there AB. There has been a bit of a trend recently to setting skis up to roll more. And the way to get more roll out of a ski is to run the fin shallower and longer. Note how shallow Radar is running their fins these days; they are .050" shallower than they used to be, and I know both Whitney and Matt run their fins even shallower than that. So do I, and I'm not on Radar.

Straying that far from the factory setup isn't a good idea for anyone who doesn't fully understand fin-setup. But if you you have a ski brand other than Radar and want to try setting your ski up to roll easier and more, just put the Radar fin numbers on it. It may not be perfect for your ski, but it will work surprisingly well. I did this with a D3 Quest, about as different a ski to the Strada as you can get, and it worked remarkably well.

As a point of interest, the more you let the ski roll, the more it takes the fin out of play around the ball (See pic below to understand dynamic fin area changes). So you can actually tune WHERE your ski smears the most using FD.

The following user(s) said Thank You: AB

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 7 months ago #7350

  • AB
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The Goode 9100 was the first ski that came out with what I would call a "radical" departure from 2.5" depth. At 2.449, I thought this along with 6.872 jaws, or 6.903 ish tips, was the reason the thing turned so crazy and rolled up on edge so easy.

Recently, we have seen everyone migrate back to 2.50" again with shorter fins.

Could be a move to get the ski to run more throughout the turns, as the 9100 liked to stall and go.

Deeper fins are harder to roll and keep there when you approach the wakes. There is more resistance and less slip. IMO.

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 7 months ago #7351

Interesting - which "Jeff" is in the videos ? Can't be Rogers as he's left foot forward, but when you mention Mapple I start to think of Rogers - isn't marketing great!

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 7 months ago #7352

  • BudDavis
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  • Today is a gift, so ski. No promise of more.
Jeff Gilbert.
He is a great skier, but more known for his talented driving.

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 7 months ago #7353

Check out this old Wade Cox MasterCraft Rewind Video. He's covering some basic stuff, but in the middle he discusses coming out of the onside ("heelside") turn. The basic notion is that you "sit down" to get yourself back/away and into a good position. From there, you are able to get that good lean, be away and stacked, and rip through the wake.

The thing about being early and wide is what you did from the previous buoy. The first original videos showed Andy and Jeff close up at 3 ball. They are both reaping the benefits of what they did right after 2 ball. As much as people may strive to be symmetrical, I think you get earlier and get more width going from your onside into your offside. Your offside turn (and then the pull from there) is basically to retain as much space as possible from what you built out of your onside turn. It's not that you can't be early or generate width out of your offside, it is just less magnitude than you get out of your onside. There is only so much a skier can do pulling from that offside - the optimum body geometry is not there. I think lot of us (well, mostly me) scrambling through a pass make up the most time out of the onside turn.

The point is that you need to get into a strong position immediately after the turn. And, no matter how strong you think that position is, the pros are doing it at a different level.


Goode XT - 65.25" with Wiley double high wraps
2009 Malibu Response LX with Zero Off Rev R - Setting C2

Ranked in the top 50 for US Open Men's slalom

My skiing is like a box of chocolates...you never know what you're gonna get.

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 7 months ago #7354

Andy is carrying more speed from the beginning approaching the buoy. He is turning smartly before he arrives at the buoy and continues turning gaining angle well past it. No big spray out the front of the ski heading back to the centerline (doesn't stall).

BudDavis wrote:
Here is the other side.

What do you guys see?

MISkier said in post #7305 above: "Look at Andy right at hookup out of the 2-4 turn when the camera is on that side of the course. His head and upper body are "away" from the boat much more and immediately. He is generating much more speed earlier and probably holds the angle much better. Excellent stack combined with extra lean away from the boat and both applied immediately after the turn. He is getting the work done earlier and is more efficient because of how much more he is away with his head/upper body.

Jeff is more upright on that 2-4 side. It is the onside turn for both of them. Andy is getting more from it."


Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 7 months ago #7355

I agree with your fin setting comments. I gradually reduced depth and increased length last season and will likely continue tweaking in that direction this season. I am currently sub 2.5 depth and around 6.89 length using tips.

SkiJay wrote:
AB wrote:
1. They roll the ski up much higher sooner and do not come off roll as load increases. (We should explore how to roll the ski more).


Keen eye you've got there AB. There has been a bit of a trend recently to setting skis up to roll more. And the way to get more roll out of a ski is to run the fin shallower and longer. Note how shallow Radar is running their fins these days; they are .050" shallower than they used to be, and I know both Whitney and Matt run their fins even shallower than that. So do I, and I'm not on Radar.

Straying that far from the factory setup isn't a good idea for anyone who doesn't fully understand fin-setup. But if you you have a ski brand other than Radar and want to try setting your ski up to roll easier and more, just put the Radar fin numbers on it. It may not be perfect for your ski, but it will work surprisingly well. I did this with a D3 Quest, about as different a ski to the Strada as you can get, and it worked remarkably well.

As a point of interest, the more you let the ski roll, the more it takes the fin out of play around the ball (See pic below to understand dynamic fin area changes). So you can actually tune WHERE your ski smears the most using FD.

The following user(s) said Thank You: AB

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 7 months ago #7357

  • LEE
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  • So, your sayin' there's a chance!
I thought Bud's 1st post indicated that he wanted to talk about how to Get Wide specifically from the perspective of that segment of video posted. -My comments were based on that segment specifically...

Agreed fully on most every result in Slalom is a product of what precedes it. It all starts at the Turn In for the Gates! How and where that's done.

As far as being "Strong" and Massive Roll Angles are concerned, we don't have to look any farther then the awesome Women skiers to conclude that a "Strong position" isn't really about being STRONG! It's LEVERAGE! Fluid Technique like Martial Arts. Also, for the Bigger stronger Men out there, it is very easy to grab far too much Roll angle along with Bad direction and for many reasons, NEVER get there early and wide.

Because I am physical and fairly strong, too much Roll angle and too much cross course directional angle are certainly my biggest short comings. I become an giant anchor, like a sailboat working against the wind instead of with it. Then I get Pulled up and shot out of a Cannon, down course, narrow and wicked fast into the next Ball...

The more I try to fight it, (physical input) the worse are my results.

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 7 months ago #7358

  • AB
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I think the top few gals are pound for pound every bit as strong as the guys. Regina and Whitney are ripped! Karina is into Crossfit like a maniac now.

The key is looking at how low they let their core get to the water right after the buoy. They start out in a much greater angle of attack or resistance. Part of this is how they finish the turns in a position to manage load. Rarely do you see them getting pulled "up" by the boat as they enter the wake.

When I comsidered myself a good skier and running 35 consistently and a threat to run 38, I would think that I was really low and early, until I watched video and wondered how in the world I ran anything.
The following user(s) said Thank You: MISkier

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 7 months ago #7359

The best change to my skiing came when I stopped thinking Wide and started thinking "Get Up on the Boat."

It starts significantly with the pull out...Instead of leaning against the boat and trying to get wide early, you have to get as much COM Forward and accelerate up on the boat as quick as you can..There is no drifting back or turning in co-speed with the boat...You turn in COM forward with speed and carry that through the gates which gives you tremendous carryout...It moves the apex wider, like Andy shows, and way before the buoy...With the turn done early, the buoy is just something you pass inbound...Speed equals Angle, and that also allows you to load less..It made where I start at 32 off feel like 28, 35 feel like 32, and 38 feel like 35...There feels like very little speed variation through the course..34 mph, felt like 36, the first time I did it.

I do a one handed gate, but my ski partner does a two, and he immediately saw a huge difference in the increased speed and angle...For both of us it really changed our perspective of how we see 38, from the visual point of our heads being out wider on the buoy line, instead of well inside it, and just getting the ski around the buoy..You find yourself with much more time coming into the ball..The hardest part being not to over rotate because of it.

Can't wait for it to get warmer to ski more than twice a week and seriously work on this.
The following user(s) said Thank You: AB, Bill Gladding

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 7 months ago #7360

  • LEE
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re: "I think the top few gals are pound for pound every bit as strong as the guys. Regina and Whitney are ripped! Karina is into Crossfit like a maniac now".


Very true. I was actually going to write "awesome female skiers Past and Present". But, lets just back up and forget the few New Age Powerfully trained females and focus on how the typical Awesome female skier got it done and gets it done! I believe the answer is sheer leverage and fluid technique over muscle and strength.

Not sure how Karina is doing now, she at one time, was about as graceful and poetic as one could ever hope to be. But man, after she jumped into hardcore competitive Crossfit and came back to the Tournament scene, her skiing went way down and she had visibly replaced her totally graceful technique with some very uncharacteristic herky-jerky, muscling inconsistency.

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 7 months ago #7373

OK I am missing something here? Everyone is talking about Andy being "up on the boat" more in the split screen video, by being earlier and wider? I do see what a lot are seeing in that he appears to def keep the handle in closer to the body off the second wake and is most certainly wider with his ski and handle. The part of the video I do not understand is that Andy appears LATER in the video to me than Jeff?? Assuming the split screen is lining them up at the same TIME in the course (i.e. the boat is in the same place for each skier at any moment), Jeff most certainly completes his turn before Andy in the video. When Jeff is right next to the bouy, Andy is still several feet away (up course) from it. I am having trouble understanding how this can happen unless Jeff is actually "up on the boat" more than Andy?? Of course I am assuming the boat is in the same place for each skier at any point in the video regardless of where the skier is. Am I wrong??

The above comments are about the first video where they are at 1 ball. It does seem to me that Andy is "caught up" by 2 ball and from that point I see that he is definitely ahead of Jeff in the course. He is def getting better speed behind the boat from 1-2 and 2-3 in the second video, and appears to get to 2 and 3 ball slightly ahead of Jeff.

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 7 months ago #7375

David, if you compare two skiers skiing the same rope lenght the skier who is the one closest to centerline will have the boat further downcourse than the wider skier.
There is nothing in these screenshots showing us the location of the boat.
Judging by the added width Andy skis he is clearly earlier and wider than Jeff.

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 7 months ago #7376

  • BudDavis
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David,
You have a good eye.
It is hard for me to split screen videos when I did not have control taking them.
I worked with the videos for a while to line them up, but the POV of the camera was slightly different, which made it impossible to line up exactly. Sort of like comparing two videos where one camera was on the pylon and the other was in the passenger seat. We can compare, but not completely as much as if the camera was stationary.

See the two screen captures.
The first one from the first video and I lined up the lane buoy with their right hip, but you can see that the camera in not in the same place in reference to the turn buoys.

The second video, I used the boat going through the gate set to get the timing the same.


Video1.PNG



Boatguidesecondvideo.PNG

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 7 months ago #7377

  • LEE
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  • So, your sayin' there's a chance!
Forget the (split screen) video comparison from a perfect sequential aspect. As there is no way to accurately sequence two different videos that are shot with any variations to the POV, film speed, etc...

Just Stop frame Each Individual Skier at his Widest point (@ the Ball) and it is very evident who is wider and Therefore, also earlier.

This is how I saw it. As stated below; "At his widest point, his handle is literally Buoy line width, while Jeff's is 2-3' inside the Buoy line. Which demonstrates the difference in the rope angle from the Pylon. (with the same rope length) The only way for Andy to create more angle is by physically being earlier (up on the Boat) in the course at the same distance marker". (the Turn Buoy)
The following user(s) said Thank You: DanE

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 7 months ago #7397

That clears up a lot of what I was seeing at one ball. I was assuming the boat was in same place with both skiers in the first video. Because Jeff got to the bouy sooner in that video I was confused because Andy is definitely wider. But if his boat is farther into the course at that time , it all makes sense now.

One other thing tho Bud that I think I notice in your pics below? It seems to me that Jeff has more ski in the water than Andy off the second wake?? Certainly in the pic below Andy's entire front foot is out of the water? While Jeff's water is breaking mid way or further up his front boot?? I know a lot of pros have a lot of ski in the water in the turn, but is this a mistake by Andy or "technique" off the second wake??

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 7 months ago #7399

  • BudDavis
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David,
I think Andy is in the process of landing after lifting his ski during the edge change.
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Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 7 months ago #7401

  • LEE
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  • So, your sayin' there's a chance!
Agreed. Here Jeff is more airborne then Andy. This Shot is just a tad before Andy's Ski becomes more airborne and Jeff's is back down.

Andy-Jeff.PNG
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Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 7 months ago #7404

One thing I think I see that is different as well (well maybe 2 other things)... Andy's ski appears to me to be more outwardly directed than jeffs.. Jeff's ski is pointing down course more than Andy's. Also, of note and not sure if or how it affects things, but the body positions and stances on the ski at any given point in the course look very similar to me.

I do see more "lean" and better maintenance of the handle in close to the body by Andy. I think this is what gives Andy more speed/lean behind the boat, thus making him earlier and wider.

It also appears to me that Jeff is a bigger guy than Andy?? Is this true?? If so, could that affect Jeff's ability to get the handle low and keep it there? And how does that affect his ability to get and maintain cross course speed?

Re: Get wide. Great advice, but how do we do it? 3 years, 7 months ago #7405

I keep reading through this thread trying to think of something to say that makes sense. I looked through the videos and comments again this am to arrive at what I think is a likely answer to the original subject question. It is all about maintaining higher pace throughout the pass and begins when you turn in for the gates. You need to be high on the boat, take as much angle as you are able to generate speed to maintain and stick with it until you have advanced well up on the boat again.

The key element is maintaining and generating adequate pace. The better you are at that the more angle you can hold resulting in earlier and wider. I think in my case and what I see in others most skiers generally like lower pace and something to lean against. If you turn in comfortably slow with a really tight line you are already done. Wider is just wishful thinking at that point unless you mean somewhere after the next turn ball. It seems for me anyway my comfort zone is the problem.
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