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TOPIC: 39.5off Split screen Bud verses Chet and Andy

39.5off Split screen Bud verses Chet and Andy 2 years, 5 months ago #8039

  • BudDavis
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  • Today is a gift, so ski. No promise of more.
I like to split screen and study good skiers to try and figure out what I need to change to ski like them. Here are two split screen videos of 39.5off/10.75m 34.2mph. I am open to suggestions from you guys as to what they are doing that I need to do or not do in order to ski better.



Re: 39.5off Split screen Bud verses Chet and Andy 2 years, 5 months ago #8040

  • AB
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I think you and Jeff or other LFF skiers would make it easier.

My observstion against Chet is that he loads more before the wake and gets lower by squatting his hip lower to the water and releases into more knee bend in the chair position and works less adter the wake.

I didnt look at Andy but have watched enough of him in the past to know it would be simlar. More work sooner and less later.

I could be wrong as its late and im on my iphone amd my eyes are worthless at the end of the day.
The following user(s) said Thank You: BudDavis

Re: 39.5off Split screen Bud verses Chet and Andy 2 years, 5 months ago #8054

It is interesting to me how you are running the same line as Chet and Andy but seem to be able to do it without leaning as much as they do. When they round the buoy and set the line seems to be very near their thigh. You not as much. You seem to be able to get going with a lot less lean.

What they seem to do a little different than you is start higher on the boat and drive the ski through the middle just a little more. When they unload the ski almost jumps out to buoy width where it seems your ski stays on the water and you ride out on top of your ski versus going straight from one solid edge to the other.

I think you actually have a different style than those two but maybe modifying your gate a little as Ed has said many times on this forum would help smooth things out. If you could start your pass higher on the boat it might allow you to generate a little more pace (without too much load) so you could be higher on the boat on the other side sooner. You are very close to running that pass cleanly and most likely without any big changes. Need to work out the slack though. Not good for the body...

Great work!
The following user(s) said Thank You: BudDavis

Re: 39.5off Split screen Bud verses Chet and Andy 2 years, 5 months ago #8055

I really like Chet's four ball. Hard to believe that is -39 watching him go four to five. Almost like he was checking to see just how easy he could go and still get to the next buoy.

Re: 39.5off Split screen Bud verses Chet and Andy 2 years, 5 months ago #8058

  • BudDavis
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  • Today is a gift, so ski. No promise of more.
Yes, I do want to have that cast out edge change. I have been working on that some.

Also, I agree that I could benefit from being wider on the gate shot, BUT keep in mind when trying to compare the skier positions that the split screen has cameras in different positions.

My camera is centered on the pylon and Chet and Andy have hand held cameras viewing the rope from a more forward position. This difference will greatly hinder the ability to accurately compare "how high" on the boat.

Re: 39.5off Split screen Bud verses Chet and Andy 2 years, 5 months ago #8060

  • BudDavis
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Check out these two screen captures. One is of Andy from the same video I used in the split screen and a more recent 39.5off pass from when I did the split screen. I would have captured the pull out but the port side of the boat does not show up in the Andy video.

At first glance you see the bimini strap and think Andy is wider at one buoy. But look closer to where the rope in on the side of the boat away from the rubber and you might wonder if I am wider or is it an illusion because of the camera POV. But then look closer at the ski angle at the buoy. Is my ski angled more towards the boat as if I got wider and am now headed back in? Or is it another illusion due to the camera POV?

My thought is: I am the same width as Andy. I think the buoy shows that. I think I am further up on the boat than Andy. So, is further up on the boat always good? My feeling is, if you ski to the end of the line, you can be as far up on the boat as you wish. However, I am not skiing to the end of the rope. I am only skiing up on the boat, and that gives me slack. I think I need to ski wide of the boat instead of up on the boat.

This should be fun to think about and discuss.


Andyatonebuoy39off.PNG


Budatonebouy39off.PNG

Re: 39.5off Split screen Bud verses Chet and Andy 2 years, 5 months ago #8061

  • LEE
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  • So, your sayin' there's a chance!
My imperfect, but very simple method for comparing width is to put the tip of my finger on my screen at the spot where the skier Begins their Turn In. (B/C you are using a Pylon mounted Cam. this method should prove to be fairly accurate.) Then I keep my finger there and watch the rest of the pass for the "Turn In" points at #2, 4 & 6 Balls.

Maybe a tad inaccurate, but it appears that your "Turn In" is narrower by 3-4 ft. and back (before) the Balls 4-6ft from the rest of your pass. IOW, approx.: 2'-3' inside of and 2'-4' before a "0" Ball.

Re: 39.5off Split screen Bud verses Chet and Andy 2 years, 5 months ago #8062

  • BudDavis
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  • Today is a gift, so ski. No promise of more.
I drew a diagram to show how my mind sees this.
In this diagram, the skier on the blue rope and blue boat is farther up on the boat than the skier with the red boat and red rope.
Both ropes are the same length and both skiers are the same width from the boat. The blue skier has excessive speed and skied to the buoy.

The blue skier needs to get rid of the slack in the rope by doing one of two things.

1) take less load from the boat.

Or

2) ski to the end of the rope.

If they took less load and up popped a head wind, they could fall short of reaching the buoy, so I think they should just ski to the end of the rope and be wider in the course.


Thoughts?


2ropes.PNG

Re: 39.5off Split screen Bud verses Chet and Andy 2 years, 5 months ago #8063

How about doing both ?
I know you are aware that when you put too much load in you can become slightly disconnected off the second wake which brings you narrow, with speed.
(Weirdest thing becasue your brain tells you that the load and speed has to be creating width.)
So slightly less load into the wakes and more effort on maintaining the outbound connection to ski to end of the line.
Then look at the turn

Re: 39.5off Split screen Bud verses Chet and Andy 2 years, 5 months ago #8064

Aside - why are you not entering the big Dawg?
Would be great to see you competing with these guys on the water rather than screen splitting

Re: 39.5off Split screen Bud verses Chet and Andy 2 years, 5 months ago #8066

  • BudDavis
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  • Today is a gift, so ski. No promise of more.
Kevin, Good advice. I try but it is hard to change old habits.

___________________________

Those guy ski way better than I do. Watching those guys is how I have struggled up the ladder.

They can ski 39s like they are warm-up passes.

I would hope to continue improving despite my age (turning 58 this year) and eventually ski in a Big Dawg tournament some day.

Who know, by then there could be an Old Dawg tournament.

Re: 39.5off Split screen Bud verses Chet and Andy 2 years, 5 months ago #8067

  • LEE
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  • So, your sayin' there's a chance!
Bud,

The only objection I have to the Red/Blue illustration is that it only reflects the symptom at the Balls. But, does not reflect your Turn in point for Ball #1.

I believe you have a great point on the rest of the pass with your illustration. But, I believe in order to Change the symptoms of slack, from late Speed and down course speed, it would require what I had mentioned earlier (about the Gate shot in the other thread) and not much else!

But, hey we're talking about RUNNING 39! How many skiers in the World have EVER achieved that?!?! You may be in the 1% of the 1%'rs!

Re: 39.5off Split screen Bud verses Chet and Andy 2 years, 5 months ago #8069

If I could get a score at 39 I think I would enter
Today a score mid 38 would make the sweet 16 in Spain.

I agree with your comment about changing ingrained habits and I would really, really like to know of a predictable way to do this. Not just for me, but many of the guys I ski with have habits that are not conducive to,progressing. When the kids start they quickly breeze past some of the vets - and in my opinion this is not because (as everyone says) they are younger and keener, but because they are taught correctly from the beginning. No bad habits learned = non to undo.

Like you (I am 50) I have bad habits from years of skiing a certain way because it seemed to work for me. Without correct guidance we just ingrain the bad habits.

I actually think that the answer is probably more a psychology thing rather than a "tweak" when being coached from the boat.
My particular gripe is that:
Many skiers that say they want to get better are not actually able to put in the time and effort to achieve it. But for those that are I really wish there was a "programme" that worked.
In other sports they have this covered, why not in slalom skiing? Perhaps that's what's makes it so compulsive - we still have the opportunity to work it out for ourselves?

Too late - not enough whiskey

Re: 39.5off Split screen Bud verses Chet and Andy 2 years, 5 months ago #8072

I get the different camera angle thing and it almost stopped me from posting but I thought I saw a couple things that might matter. I like that you have come back with the "cast out edge change" comment. I think that is the big difference. Based upon your posture you maintain very light pressure on the line but maybe you could tweak that a bit and try to move your middle a little closer to the handle approaching the centerline to try and go for more outward bound direction.

FYI if I were to run -39 I think I would just take a picture of me in my gear for my wall of fame and call it quits!

BudDavis wrote:
Yes, I do want to have that cast out edge change. I have been working on that some.

Also, I agree that I could benefit from being wider on the gate shot, BUT keep in mind when trying to compare the skier positions that the split screen has cameras in different positions.

My camera is centered on the pylon and Chet and Andy have hand held cameras viewing the rope from a more forward position. This difference will greatly hinder the ability to accurately compare "how high" on the boat.

Re: 39.5off Split screen Bud verses Chet and Andy 2 years, 5 months ago #8074

  • LEE
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  • So, your sayin' there's a chance!
I am trying to learn something here. So, bear with me and my very crude and primitive attempt to display what I am trying to analyze!

This is done by still frames, 2 stationary plumb bobs and sticky pointer arrows placed on the PC screen. ...crazy stupid! I know! The Plumb Bobs and the pointers were fixed and never moved for the pictures, only the video recording moved fwd. in time and then stopped for each picture.. The camera is pylon mounted so, it will be fairly stationary. But, fwd. momentum and the subsequent slack at times, may make for marginal results. This is all based on the camera's POV. So...

The Blue Line represents the initiation of the "Turn In" point at the beginning of the pass. The Blue pointer arrow represents the Rope location from the POV at the "Turn In" point.

The Red Line represents the Buoy Location of 2-4-6 Balls from the POV and the Red pointer arrow represents the Rope location at the point the Buoy intersects the Red Line at #2,4,6 Balls while video is in real time..

ALL COMMENTS WELCOME!

Turn In (Zero Ball)
IMG_1TURNIN.JPG


2 Ball
IMG_1182BALL.JPG


4 Ball
IMG_1183BALL.JPG


6 Ball
IMG_1184BALL.JPG


There "appears" to be a significant difference between the Turn in point and the actual Buoy locations to me. After rigging this up, I now believe the Turn In point is possibly not quite as much narrower as I previously estimated. But, it may have been initiated a tad sooner (before zero Ball) then I had estimated.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Bill Gladding

Re: 39.5off Split screen Bud verses Chet and Andy 2 years, 5 months ago #8075

  • BudDavis
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  • Today is a gift, so ski. No promise of more.
Lee,
I like what you have done and I think it makes good sense.

Re: 39.5off Split screen Bud verses Chet and Andy 2 years, 5 months ago #8076

  • AB
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I was recently skiing with a LFF friend who has run 38 this year in a tournament, but is struggling with it right now. After watching him, pulling way past the gate for one, and having slack, we started working on getting wide on the boat with right hip forward, a gradual turn lead by dropping his right hip and bum towards the water and anchoring the handle mid-thigh. He was more upright with handle above his waist. The focus was to not having any load on his right arm after the right gate ball but have pressure on his left hand holding the handle in tight and then ski away from the handle in the white water.

This eliminated the slalck hit at one ball and he actually ran over two ball from being too early.
He didn't run 38, but said those were the best starts he had all year.

Keys were to keep handle low in relation to the water at all times and drop his inside hip more to gain direction and then keep hip up to gain leverage.

He is on the verge of running it a lot.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Bill Gladding

Re: 39.5off Split screen Bud verses Chet and Andy 2 years, 5 months ago #8078

Bud, I agree with your thought that further up on the boat is not always better. In your post #8060 you point out that you are up on the boat more than Andy. I think that Andy is already dropping back from a wider position to change directions whereas you seemed to be riding a little more straight to the buoy where you then change directions. In the meanwhile you have been overtaking the boat which has created the slack.

In Lee's post with the string and pointers I think there is additional evidence to show that too high on the boat may not be good. Chet had a little hitch in his direction change around two ball and it is the buoy he was highest up on the boat if I understand Lee's references. Approaching four ball which appeared to me to be the predecessor to his very light four to five he was much further back.

The only place I think a little higher on the boat is better is setting up for the gate. For me I just need a little more time to get myself right on my ski to go the other way. It seems that Chet starts higher but doesn't go for that the remainder of the pass.

Still have to wonder if the camera operator isn't throwing this analysis off a bit. Your pass you are in the same spot each time versus Chet who is a little here and there from buoy to buoy.

AB follows in his post #8076 with some comments that make a lot of sense to me. I think if you can figure out how to tweak your gate so you are higher/wider sooner you can work out your slack line. I think it will allow you to decelerate and change directions with a tight line.

Re: 39.5off Split screen Bud verses Chet and Andy 2 years, 5 months ago #8079

  • BudDavis
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  • Today is a gift, so ski. No promise of more.
In reference to the friend AB is helping: Slalom is tough. Look at the Big Dawg scores from this weekend.

Jason Seels knocked out Andy Mapple with 2 at 41off and then in the next round left the door open with 4 at 38off. How many times do you think Jason has run 38off and then missed it.

_________________________________________________


Bill, I think you are right. The camera in the boat videoing Chet is moving around, so I think Lee was just using his marks for the pylon mounted camera in my boat.

Re: 39.5off Split screen Bud verses Chet and Andy 2 years, 5 months ago #8085

  • LEE
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  • So, your sayin' there's a chance!
BudDavis wrote:

_________________________________________________


Bill, I think you are right. The camera in the boat videoing Chet is moving around, so I think Lee was just using his marks for the pylon mounted camera in my boat.


Yes, only Bud's Cam is pylon mounted. IMO, only his pass could have any POV relevance. Man, I wish Chet and Andy's passes were done with the same mount, Camera and Boat as Buds! That would prove to be some VERY interesting still frame footage throughout the entire pass!

Re: 39.5off Split screen Bud verses Chet and Andy 2 years, 5 months ago #8088

  • AB
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I agree Bill. Not a huge fan of getting up even with the platform at all costs for the gate. I try to get wide early so I have plenty of time to pick my line, but I am RFF, so my torque out of the hole, so to say, is probably quicker than a LFF skier. Too many times I see folks up on the boat have to make a crazy turn in, stay upright, and not lean into a leveraged position, so they take more speed and less angle into one ball.

I always say to grunt as you hit the first wake, but in reality, it is in the middle of the wakes, and then get off it and ride the ski out the ball. If you are still pulling after the right gate you are not doing something right. That's just my opinion, but I rarely watch top skiers working hard after the gate, it is more positioning the ski behind the handle and on edge riding out to the ball.

Re: 39.5off Split screen Bud verses Chet and Andy 2 years, 5 months ago #8089

  • AB
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wherever you start your lean in, this is textbook position heading into the wake....


image_2015-07-13.jpg

Re: 39.5off Split screen Bud verses Chet and Andy 2 years, 5 months ago #8090

  • BudDavis
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  • Today is a gift, so ski. No promise of more.
That looks like Jeff Rodgers. Is it?

Re: 39.5off Split screen Bud verses Chet and Andy 2 years, 5 months ago #8091

  • AB
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the one and only

Re: 39.5off Split screen Bud verses Chet and Andy 2 years, 5 months ago #8094

I am LFF so like to be a bit higher for my gate but my last session I went up further on my gate with no particular benefit so settled back into buoy width or just outside (-32 and 33 1/2 off). I do hang on through the middle though. It is not so much as pulling as maintaining position.

Go back and view the comparison videos and watch the bottom of the skis. I think I see the bottom of Chet's and Andy's skis later than Bud's. They may not be exerting much effort to maintain the ski in that attitude but I think it is why they seem to be wider than Bud. I think if Bud could turn in a little later, accelerate without loading too much he could get on that line and could get better outward bound direction past the centerline.

AB wrote:
I agree Bill. Not a huge fan of getting up even with the platform at all costs for the gate. I try to get wide early so I have plenty of time to pick my line, but I am RFF, so my torque out of the hole, so to say, is probably quicker than a LFF skier. Too many times I see folks up on the boat have to make a crazy turn in, stay upright, and not lean into a leveraged position, so they take more speed and less angle into one ball.

I always say to grunt as you hit the first wake, but in reality, it is in the middle of the wakes, and then get off it and ride the ski out the ball. If you are still pulling after the right gate you are not doing something right. That's just my opinion, but I rarely watch top skiers working hard after the gate, it is more positioning the ski behind the handle and on edge riding out to the ball.

Re: 39.5off Split screen Bud verses Chet and Andy 2 years, 5 months ago #8096

  • LEE
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  • So, your sayin' there's a chance!
I think I'm on the same page as Bill with the Gate shot. " I think if Bud could turn in a little later, accelerate without loading too much he could get on that line and could get better outward bound direction past the centerline."


I don't think Bud should kill himself by any means, trying to get Wide "at all costs"... B/C I've seen him run -32 with No Gate shot at all!!!

But, this IS -39 we're talking about and that length doesn't even reach the Buoy line in the 1st place! Therefore, a wide Buoy line turn in at -39 would absolutely necessitate a platform high Turn In point! Or maybe, (starting at least platform high) a well timed Glide and Turn In, just as the Ski speed begins to fade, the LFF skier begins to gently Drop the Hip and Roll the ski into the Turn in.

I believe this would give the best opportunity for Early Speed and Angle, allowing for a more dynamic edge change and better outbound direction. Then allowing the Skier to Ride that Speed OUT to a wider or at least an Earlier and Slower Turn into #1.
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